Suržyk, mova ktora ima elementy iz jazykov rosijskogo i ukrainskogo. Je suržyk jazykom, dialektom, movu a može to toliko smes jazykov?
Pytanie "is surzhyk a language" bylo dane na facebooku i tut su odgovory uživateľov (aninimizovane bo tema je velmi delikatna):
👤 Surzhyk and trasianka are mixed languages. I don’t think they deserve official recognition. They have no literature or codified grammar, and no original vocabulary
👤 languages...or dialects?
👤 Doesn't really matter in linguistics. They are no standard languages, that's it.
👤 dialects with fuzzy borders
👤 Surzhyk and Trasyanka are not territorial dialects, because they were shaped in cities. There are territorial Ukrainian and Belarusian dialects on these territories as well. However, in sociolinguistic terms, S. and T. are often compared to the Russian prostorečie.
👤 I have a question, I had read somewhere (cant remember the source) that Belarussian is the closest to the language spoken in Kievan Rus. Can you comfirm or negate and explain it to me?
👤 Belarusian does not have any more specific relation to the language of Kievan Rus than Russian or Ukrainian, to the best of my knowledge, all three of these East Slavic languages are based on the dialects that go back to Old Russian/Old East Slavic, but I wouldn't really say if any of them is unique in its relationship to Old Russian/Old East Slavic. I wonder what the author based their claims on.
👤 Mixed languages: Russian and Ukrainian. Sounds abominably.
👤 Surzyk and Trasyanka have almost nothing to do with territorial dialects since they are predominantly urban speech (although the dialectal layer may sometimes be important, e.g. in favoring some phenomena that are borrowed either from Ukrainian/Belarusian standard languages or from Russian). Also, Ukrainian and Belarusian have nothing to do with Russian dialects since the former are independent standard languages and they are based on respective Ukrainian/Belarusian dialects that were standardized.
👤 I'm a native speaker of Surzhyk because I was born in a place where 14.6% of people speak it 🙂 Or rather, I was. Because when I moved to another region, I started speaking more pure Ukrainian. Surzhyk is a certain lexical mixture. For what reasons a native speaker allows a mixture in his or her language is a different question. But you have to speak a language (any language) correctly, that is, in the school sense correctly. Not in the political sense. That's what I mean.
👤 цікаво, що суржикомовні, бачу по своїм родичам, можуть одне і теж слово сказати спочатку українською, потім російською, чи навпаки. Ну ще і від рівня освіти залежить.
👤 Surzhik is a creole language and as such it hypothetically could develop into a "normal" language, but for that to happen, the population, for which Surzhik is a mother tongue, must go through a period of isolation and consolidation, which doesn't seem plausible under the current circumstances.
👤 ...plus some grammatical systematisation and codification, etc. Yes, very unlikely, but theoretically possible.
👤 Surzhyk is too unstable to develop into a language of its own. Its speakers can use a Ukrainian and then a Russian word with the same meaning in two consecutive sentences.
👤 To Surzhik speakers both words are just synonyms which they use interchangeably as do speakers of any other language.
👤 There are few to no absolute synonyms in natural languages—all words convey slightly different meaning, which isn't the case here.
👤 We all tend to avoid repetition/tautology when we tell a story. So, we just have to use synonyms even if they convey slightly different meaning.
👤 Why people speaking Suržik should learn Ukrainian? What is Literary Ukrainian language and is derived from?...Ukrainian Diaspora in Canada?! Poltava, Sumy, Chernihiv - almost 50% Suržik and 50 % Russian. Never heard there pure Ukrainian Language.
👤 Literary Ukrainian is based on the language of Poltava, Cherkasy and southern Kyiv regions before they were Russified and Surzhyk developed there in the XX century.
👤 Аз съм против да се премахват насилствено езикови варианти, но според мене суржикът няма бъдеще, защото той не изпълнява една от основните функции на езика: да да обединява някаква общност и да я разграничава от други общности - той не е част от идентичността на никоя група хора. Освен това той е неконкурентоспособен с други езикови варианти, играещи важна социално-политическа роля и активно поддържани от своите носители. Според мене стандартният украински език ще доминира над всички останали езикови форми в Украйна в обозримо бъдеще, защото освен всичко друго той обединява цялата украинска нация, а тя има особена нужда от това сега.
👤 Surzhyk is a mixing of Russian and Ukrainian, and as such, it is a pidgin and therefore a language, but I find it much better and useful to speak either Russian or Ukrainian, or even both tongues! Even if many speakers of Surzhyk can’t express themselves otherwise, I don’t see the point of mixing languages… 🤔
👤 It's a bit like Portuñol - a transitional pidgin between two closely related languages - but no language of its own right.
👤 omething like this exists in Czechia and Slovakia I believe, in some regions at least
👤 there are two transitional Dialects - one called "Slováčko" in southeast Czechia around Břeclav and "Ponašemu" beween Czech, Polish and Slovak around Karviná and Těšín. There used to be a dialect continuum between most Slavic languages before most of the dialects got extinct.
👤 don't know why I thought that ponašemu is a transitional dialect between Polish and Belarusian
👤 I would like to see it codified.
👤 I live in Warsaw, which means I meet Ukrainians everywhere, I work with them and I hear them speaking everyday. I've never met anyone who speaks pure Ukrainian, of course people from the west tend to speak surzhyk more in favour of Ukrainian, but they still use Russian words randomly. It's funny when they claim they don't understand Russian. If you don't know Russian, then stop saying fucking "канешна" and "вапще" or something. I speak Polish and it's not hard for me not to say "poszłem" or "wziąść" because I'm aware of the language I speak and I don't want to sound like a plebian, so I guess it's not so hard.
👤 All Ukrainians understand Russian. Some say they don't to distance themselves from russia further.
👤 as Ukranian I agree. But you find it everywhere. I live 25 years in The Netherlands and here in Rotterdam they speak very diffrent Dutch than they speak 60km further at Brabant or even 100km in Tilburg. That distance is very small but still big diffrences in the language.
👤 But they still speak the Dutch language, not a mixture of it with German, French, and so ...
👤 muaah not really, they have their own words for diffirent things, but major is common dutch I agree.
👤 Could you please share your meaning of pure Ukrainian?
👤 You need the meaning of Ukrainian? Take "Kobzar" and you will know what is it about. Stupid question.
👤 A little politeness won't hurt you. Maybe take Kotlyarevsky or Lesya Ukrainka as a standard?
👤 OK, apologies. Good move, Kotlyarevsky and Lesya Ukrainka are as a platinium stadard. But it is enough to read modern Ukrainian writers or good quality journalists.
👤 Ukrainian is Ukrainian. I heard many time Ukrainian - not surzik.
👤 100% Ukrainians understanding Russian language
👤 On the other hand, Rusyn language was codified in Slovakia and is also in local government use, newspapers, TV, books and taught in local schools. While in Slovakia there are only around 60.000 Rusyn speakers, in Ukrainian Subcarpathia it should be around 100.000, while another million are Ukrainian by law and may speak Rusyn as second language.
👤 Surzhyk are different kind of mixtures between Russian and Ukrainian, either at dialect level or at sociolect level.
👤 Everything people use to communicate is indeed a language in the broad sense (traffic signs are also a language). I guess the question can be formulated differently: Does Surzhyk have a system, or is it just a mixture of the two languages. Apparently Surzhyk is quite systematic. One can feel it if one compares unsystematic mixed Ukrainian-Russian speech (a great example is the so-called Azirivka with the timeless "Bimba u vahini") and the naturally functioning Surzyk (this is my favorite example which was brought to my attention by our Ukrainian colleague: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBGoarvVKz8). In my university we had a series of projects dedicated to mixed speech (Trasyanka and Surzhyk), see for example this one: https://uol.de/.../variabilitaet-und-stabilitaet-im.... My colleagues created corpora of Surzhyk and Trasyanka (better be called "Ukrainian-Russian mixed speech" and "Belarusian-Russian mixed speech") which allowed them to show the systemic character of both varieties. So the short answer is, Surzyk is, indeed, a language in the sense that it has a system (with some regional variation). Of course if someone refers to a language in the sense of standardization, then Surzhyk is by definition non-standardized -- however, it has systemic grammar (that is, there are acceptable and non-acceptable morphological elements of both sourse languages) and a lexicon (although the latter with a higher degree of variation than the grammar). As to the question whether Surzyk deserves an official recognition, I guess, it depends on the speakers of this variety -- should they desire an official recognition, they can address the political bodies within Ukraine as well as international regulating organizations (such as the ISO in this case), but I haven't heard about such efforts so far (although it is not my topic, I've only spoken a lot with my colleagues as well as have read their publications about Surzyk).
👤 Surzhyk is neither a dialect, nor a language. It is simply a result of the lingvocide and homocide that ruzzians have been doing in Ukraine for centuries. Ukrainian language was banned more than 100 times and ruzzians organized at least 3 Holodomors. Just read about it.
👤 No way. Suržik is a bastard, a mongrel. It is not a real language, but lack of capacity to speak literate languages. Suržik is unnatural as a dogcat.
👤 Surżyk hasn't stability grammar and lexic. It's amorphous mix of Ukrainian with Russian in different proportion.
👤 That's not a linguistic question. Potentially, Surzhyk can be codified, I suppose but why if the vast majority of its users seems totally fine with Ukrainian being their literary standard? The same goes for Trasianka in Belarus. Which is not to say that these language varieties are inherently bad. They're obviously not and they enrich standard Belarusian and standard Ukrainian. It's just that codifying a new literary standard without a national movement of some kind is pointless. Speakers of Trasianka and Surzhyk are just regular Belarusians and Ukrainians without any national aspirations of their own so why?
👤 Немає такого поняття ,як суржик. Це вигадка совка ,які зтирили цей с/г термін. Суржик це є помішані зернові. А українці все совкове повторюь ква-ква. Свого видумати не можуть. А часто до не укр слів відносять слова ,яки ще 1000 літ вжиіали на Руси. А тепер ніби то російська. Феєричні глупі дбйоб.
👤 There are no pure languages on the world. What you talking about? All languages were mixed, are mixed and it will be mixed. It's normal process
👤 Silesian language is a good example. It was probably a "suržik" of Polish, Moravian and German. Now you can play for example Minecraft in Silesian and it also has own ISO code (szl).
👤 well many render surzhik as a mix of russian and ukrainean , but in fact it is not true . both russian and ukrainean are standards enforced by some entities , before those there were no such a thing. Surzhik is just a native people speach in mostly rural and small towns areas . Just because media language is not prevalent there . Say like german dialects , they are all considered german , however they are much farther away from each other then surzhik is from russian or ukrainean codified languages. It is really hard to distinguish russian, belorussian and ukrainean language if you remove foreign words from them . especially ukrainean , most words that rae not russian are polish words , of german origin. which is completely logical , having the history in mind. grammar is almost completely the same except for calling case. And with knowledge of russian and ukrainean ther eis absolutely nothing new in belorussian language apart from slightly different spelling/prononciation. So surzhik is just a normal peoples language sevolved since Rus times.
👤 DOUBLE LIKE! We in the Zagrorje micro region of Croatia never speak "clear dialect" either and just the other day i was dwelling upon that it must be the case with Ukrainian. Thank you for clearing that mess up for me🤣. Some linguists consider the Zagorje-Kajkavski dialect aforementioned, to be a language per se, and it somewhat used to be back in the day though spoken by a minor population. Hence the analogy. Good English on you by the way!
👤 1000% NO. The End. Thank you.
Kak možete uvideť odnošenie do suržyka je emocionalne i različne. Na konec ja sem sdělal takže maly eksperiment informatičny, konverter jazyka rosijskogo na ukrainsku ortografiju. Jesli isnuju dva podobne jazyky, srbsky i chorvatsky, ktore imaju raznu ortografiju tedy čemu ne? Konverter možete najti tut: Surzhyk Converter
Želam vam dobroj zabavy.